Posted by happygrue on 2011-11-17 17:01:16
Great blog! I'm still digesting it, but you make some interesting points.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2011-11-17 17:09:43
Well I see your point, however you aren't really involved with the mechanics of dealing with these issues.
Firstly let's look at the problem you had. Now I haven't looked at the log, so I don't know the exact issue, however I am aware of the issue at large.
The rules we have, we know how they work and how to deal with breaches of the rules. Your situation though (must have been more than 3 months ago) was a new issue with a new client. Before it was reported, we had no idea it was an issue, once it became an issue, it then took some review for a ruling to become official on it. So yes, before we knew how to deal with it, your case may have been dealt with differently to know, as simply we didn't know the issue existed. Swearing at your opponent though (if that's what you did) is a known rule by you, me and your opponent, so you received a slapped wrist for it. It's unfortunate, but changes in software bring new issues.
So this brings up the other point, (which the above issue is part of) cloudy grey areas. The rules in some cases maybe vague or cloudy (this is because situations are different and gives us the opportunity to view them for what they are, an individual case). However the admin stance isn't cloudy, grey, vague or wishywashy. Everything is logged. You send a ticket, it's there for us to look at. You are involved in an issue, it's there for us to look at. There are no 'Well he's a good egg I'll let him off' or 'He's always causing trouble, let's just hammer him' style approach. We log everything, any favourtism would be spotted.
So, your opponent times you out when he shouldn't. We advise both involved of the rules. Then a log is made on both of your profiles. We now see no reason for either of you to break that rule again. As for the game, well we would let you both agree with some way to continue and finish it or cancel the game. This is an area where soft rules, pay. Nobody gets punished, and the game may continue if at all possible. We get a lot of satisfaction from situations like this, where everyone goes away satisfied and happy. Because there was no 'you have broken rule 7.a, you will receive a 3 day ban' style approach.
However if either of you were to comeback for breaking the same rule, this is when we get tough. We have logs, to prove you know the rules, know how they work and how you should work with them.
This has been highlighted in a few high profile cases recently. Coaches not abiding to a rule, been warned and advised on how to change, and then being caught again. Also on top of this, being caught again and again doing something, the punishments get tougher and tougher. Why? because it's all logged, we have when you broke the rule, and the punishment applied. Punishments never decrease (unless the breach wasn't as bad as before).
So what am I saying.........The rules do change and sometimes the interpretation changes, (as the site and blodbowl rules change). However, we are aware of this, and everyone is given a fair warning, for these interpretation rule breaches. However after once, we know you are aware of our interpretation, and we expect you to stay within the rules and certainly wouldn't allow the same thing to happen again.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-11-17 17:27:22
why has everyone gone so EMO?
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-11-17 17:54:22
The more clear, upright straight and honest a system is, it leaves no space for errors. it punishes the guy who intentionally drops just as hard as the guy with a bad connection. Hard rules are more vulnerable to flaws in their own design and such design rules can not be covered 100% on a volunteer run site, as the amount of coaches is just so much higher. A consequence can be a reduction of diversity and ultimately this make the game one sided and less pleasant and in it´s emotionless way of proceeding its on top of that not leaving any space for errors on you side, its unforgiving, therefor works for coaches who know 100% what they are doing just fine, whilst the new or unexperienced players suffer greatly and might get sared away, leaving the old ones on their own, drowning the fumbbl comunity.
Posted by shusaku on 2011-11-17 20:21:13
I think fumbbl is a great community. And I havent had any issues with admin decisions. I think most issues can be judged correctly and better (from an ethical point of view) without hard rules. The tourneys have no real world impact so even if something goes wrong it doesnt hurt much.
I think the job of an admin is more rewarding, when you can take decisions, that you think are right from an ethical point of view; rather than taking a decision, that you have the feeling is somehow wrong, but the rules overrule ethics.
Basically I am very happy that there are admins. And I am willing to let them do their work how they think its best and more so because I think they are doing quite a good job. I have the feeling that switching to hard rules wherever possible is a risk. A risk to lose admins. And a risk to change the community more towards a rules lawyering attitude. I think the community is working fine. And I would not be willing to take that risk.
Posted by awambawamb on 2011-11-17 23:23:10
I'm thinking about a line of self-sacrificing. If your opponent is doing some dirty tricks, disconnect/reconnect, and some unusual things, just concede. The little brat will get what he can't find in life, WINNING, and you'll be ready to play another good match against a good coach. personally, aside from disconnections due to Windows issues, I'll always be able to play. without disconnections. without breaking the 4:00 time limit.
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-11-18 01:26:39
"I think the job of an admin is more rewarding, when you can take decisions, that you think are right from an ethical point of view; rather than taking a decision, that you have the feeling is somehow wrong, but the rules overrule ethics."
great point
Posted by pythrr on 2011-11-18 10:15:21
" If your opponent is doing some dirty tricks, disconnect/reconnect, and some unusual things, just concede."
Um, no. This only encourages the bastiges.
Posted by Were_M_Eye on 2011-11-18 12:01:37
To sum it up, you can break a rule until the admins spot you, then you have to behave :D
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-11-18 12:26:24
just some clarifications there:
@harvest I give you that you have clear rules but the point is that they are only clear to you. It speaks for the quality of your organisation that you put some self bound controll there on yourselves and thats great. And thats all.
@grom a hard system leaves margin for error. It just has to be good. It can't afford to be bad and if it is it will have to adapt what it necessarily does under the pressure of the public eye. A soft system is hardly adaptable because it isn't available to critizism. And before an admin says now: They do discuss the rules - I believe there can be a conflict of interest.
And please don't confuse rules with consequences for breaking them.
@wereMeye I wonder where you get this point from. To sum it up: Soft rules just suck. Namely the 'noncompetetive play' rule, the 'strive for 11 players rule', the 'concession rules' and the 'time out rule' all suffer from the same inherent problem. And that problem isn't solved because the admins tell you to stop because afterwards you will be as smart as before.
Posted by uuni on 2011-11-18 13:13:06
I second Wreckage.
Posted by Were_M_Eye on 2011-11-18 14:04:59
Wreckage: Im joking about the post mouse made. The part of being caught once and just being warned.
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-11-18 15:10:04
Apologies... You know about irony and the internet :)
Anyhow I really hope thats not all you take from his great post either ;)