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2012-09-25 13:47:16
37 votes, rating 5.6
37 votes, rating 5.6
There be daemons!
The recent announcement by Cyanide regarding the inclusion of the Daemons of Khorne roster into their game in the near future, our forums lit up with posts about it.
The opinions on the roster itself seem to vary, with the general concensus seemingly being that they're a bit lacking in terms of back story (or fluff), have relatively strong potential early on but are essentially a fairly weak roster in the long term.
I'm not really the best person to discuss the intricate details of the roster itself, and this blog post really isn't about the daemons. Instead, this addition has made me consider the bigger picture.
The way I see it, we have four major entities in the Blood Bowl community at large: Games Workshop, FUMBBL, The NAF and Cyanide. In addition to this, we have two significant flavours of the ruleset: CRP (the official rules, posted by Games Workshop) and LRB6 (effectively CRP plus three new rosters: Chaos Pact, Slann and Underworld).
In terms of rules adoption, we have the following setup:
- Games Workshop officially uses CRP
- FUMBBL uses LRB6
- The NAF uses LRB6 (although they do accept house rules, but rankings are based on the LRB6 races)
- Cyanide uses, as of this chaos edition, a LRB6 variant without Slann and instead adding this Daemon roster.
The fact that Cyanide is choosing to diverge from both CRP and LRB6 is an interesting turn of events. Is this an indication that Games Workshop will update the CRP to include the daemons perhaps?
When FUMBBL started almost 10 years ago, the idea was to have an environment where people could play with the standardised ruleset, with as few house rules as possible. This came from the realisation that other online leauges at the time had pages and pages of rules to get through before you could play effectively. Blood Bowl as a game is already complicated enough to learn without these, and I still remain convinced that having FUMBBL run primarily using standard rules is the correct path.
Over time, with the dissolution of the BBRC, The NAF, Cyanide's release of their game, and now the introduction of the Daemon roster the question of what the standard rules is getting a bit fuzzy.
Looking outside FUMBBL, there are now three variants of the rules where there used to be only two, and this is something that I am actively considering at the moment. As I stated earlier, this is not really about the roster itself or if it's good or bad, but a strategic decision on what we should be considering as the standard rules for the game.
Although I don't have a decision made at this point, I am actively following the buzz on the roster itself and will be keeping my ears to the ground to see if there are further moves from the major players in the rules space.
We are living in interesting times!
The opinions on the roster itself seem to vary, with the general concensus seemingly being that they're a bit lacking in terms of back story (or fluff), have relatively strong potential early on but are essentially a fairly weak roster in the long term.
I'm not really the best person to discuss the intricate details of the roster itself, and this blog post really isn't about the daemons. Instead, this addition has made me consider the bigger picture.
The way I see it, we have four major entities in the Blood Bowl community at large: Games Workshop, FUMBBL, The NAF and Cyanide. In addition to this, we have two significant flavours of the ruleset: CRP (the official rules, posted by Games Workshop) and LRB6 (effectively CRP plus three new rosters: Chaos Pact, Slann and Underworld).
In terms of rules adoption, we have the following setup:
- Games Workshop officially uses CRP
- FUMBBL uses LRB6
- The NAF uses LRB6 (although they do accept house rules, but rankings are based on the LRB6 races)
- Cyanide uses, as of this chaos edition, a LRB6 variant without Slann and instead adding this Daemon roster.
The fact that Cyanide is choosing to diverge from both CRP and LRB6 is an interesting turn of events. Is this an indication that Games Workshop will update the CRP to include the daemons perhaps?
When FUMBBL started almost 10 years ago, the idea was to have an environment where people could play with the standardised ruleset, with as few house rules as possible. This came from the realisation that other online leauges at the time had pages and pages of rules to get through before you could play effectively. Blood Bowl as a game is already complicated enough to learn without these, and I still remain convinced that having FUMBBL run primarily using standard rules is the correct path.
Over time, with the dissolution of the BBRC, The NAF, Cyanide's release of their game, and now the introduction of the Daemon roster the question of what the standard rules is getting a bit fuzzy.
Looking outside FUMBBL, there are now three variants of the rules where there used to be only two, and this is something that I am actively considering at the moment. As I stated earlier, this is not really about the roster itself or if it's good or bad, but a strategic decision on what we should be considering as the standard rules for the game.
Although I don't have a decision made at this point, I am actively following the buzz on the roster itself and will be keeping my ears to the ground to see if there are further moves from the major players in the rules space.
We are living in interesting times!
Comments
Posted by mattwakeman on 2012-09-25 14:05:19
Does this mean that you are considering the possibility of a fummbl rulebook? Although it would be a flame-filled nightmare some kind of consensus which takes into consideration the unique qualities of the site could in the long run be a very good thing.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2012-09-25 14:08:55
When I opened this, I was really expecting something quite different.
I suppose my views are well known. I'm really very surprised someone like yourself who keeps involved with tabletop even sees a CRP / LRB6 distinction; I thought that to be the preserve of the 100% online coach with little knowledge of the outside world and an interest in lawyering. Let alone nodding to the fabled GW 'future'.
Even with it being a bit of a worry, it's a good thing you keep us in the loop. But wow.
/stays out of future noise and keeps fingers crossed!
I suppose my views are well known. I'm really very surprised someone like yourself who keeps involved with tabletop even sees a CRP / LRB6 distinction; I thought that to be the preserve of the 100% online coach with little knowledge of the outside world and an interest in lawyering. Let alone nodding to the fabled GW 'future'.
Even with it being a bit of a worry, it's a good thing you keep us in the loop. But wow.
/stays out of future noise and keeps fingers crossed!
Posted by Russo on 2012-09-25 14:23:27
To me the answer is maintain the offical rule sets (LRB) in Ranked and Box but develop [L] to allow more flexibility for Commissioners to cover the "house-rules" elements.
To me [L] is the lifeblood of the site because it generates a commitment and many coaches are dedicated to their leagues as opposed to the more mercenary casual environments on FUMBBL
To me [L] is the lifeblood of the site because it generates a commitment and many coaches are dedicated to their leagues as opposed to the more mercenary casual environments on FUMBBL
Posted by Garion on 2012-09-25 14:23:46
Interesting.
Daemon roster aside, I still believe the main divisions should be as close to the rules as humanly possible. The distinction between CRP on GW and LR6 that all TT users play is only the 3 new teams really. Rules aren't different between any of the versions (bugs aside). Just those teams are.
I certainly think that roster should be available in league division if someone wants to use it. But a big no for the main divisions for me.
Also are there any legal implications of using that roster?
Daemon roster aside, I still believe the main divisions should be as close to the rules as humanly possible. The distinction between CRP on GW and LR6 that all TT users play is only the 3 new teams really. Rules aren't different between any of the versions (bugs aside). Just those teams are.
I certainly think that roster should be available in league division if someone wants to use it. But a big no for the main divisions for me.
Also are there any legal implications of using that roster?
Posted by OenarLod on 2012-09-25 14:31:53
What Garion said!
Posted by ClayInfinity on 2012-09-25 14:33:29
I agree with Garion up to the point that all NAF sanctioned tournaments start using the Khorne (or any other future roster) as "allowed". At present, all NAF Tournies typically say "CRP Rule Set plus the Additional Races Pact, U/World and Slann". If those three start to get expanded to 4 (or more) then I think fumbbl should follow suit.
Growth is good... irrespective if the rosters are crap.
Growth is good... irrespective if the rosters are crap.
Posted by koadah on 2012-09-25 14:40:47
Not really impressed by the new roster but I'd go with what ClayInfinity said.
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2012-09-25 15:12:57
Like many others, I see GW, The NAF and FUMBBL being on the same version (albeit I think GW is somewhat understated on the 3 new teams until they have some Mini's to sell, if ever!)
Cyanide seem to be breaking from the pack a bit here and I don't really understand why. I am guessing Cyanide are makes a last gasp attempt to do something different to get extra player.
I really hope we don't get to the position where unsanctioned rosters start popping up ... unless I get to be the Space Marine team ;-)
Cyanide seem to be breaking from the pack a bit here and I don't really understand why. I am guessing Cyanide are makes a last gasp attempt to do something different to get extra player.
I really hope we don't get to the position where unsanctioned rosters start popping up ... unless I get to be the Space Marine team ;-)
Posted by Ehlers on 2012-09-25 15:15:47
Will go into the 4 rule adoption.
- Games Workshop officially uses CRP
They might use it, but I feel they are not importance anymore to really consider unless they decide to push a new ruleset out.
- The NAF uses LRB6 (although they do accept house rules, but rankings are based on the LRB6 races)
Like ClayInfinity said. Lots of tournaments use NAF ruleset and I think that we have a decent amount of coaches who use FUMBBL as training ground.
- Cyanide uses, as of this chaos edition, a LRB6 variant without Slann and instead adding this Daemon roster.
They are also lacking the cards and some secret weapon should not work also (right?). So in terms of what Cyanide is doing might be worth looking at the sideline, but so far the path that FUMBBL has layed out seems better. And should we use their Khorne deamon roster? That really depend on if tournaments will be using them. I always felt that Ranked and Black Box should follow the rules of the major tournaments in order for people to use them as training grounds.
- FUMBBL uses LRB6
How come we use cards in Ranked and Black box? I thought they were optional?
But to what path FUMBBL should use. When customization of teams in league is available then I think we might can talk about a FUMBBL ruleset if people want that. But for now staying and follow the path of being the most official site suited for tournament play is best IMO.
- Games Workshop officially uses CRP
They might use it, but I feel they are not importance anymore to really consider unless they decide to push a new ruleset out.
- The NAF uses LRB6 (although they do accept house rules, but rankings are based on the LRB6 races)
Like ClayInfinity said. Lots of tournaments use NAF ruleset and I think that we have a decent amount of coaches who use FUMBBL as training ground.
- Cyanide uses, as of this chaos edition, a LRB6 variant without Slann and instead adding this Daemon roster.
They are also lacking the cards and some secret weapon should not work also (right?). So in terms of what Cyanide is doing might be worth looking at the sideline, but so far the path that FUMBBL has layed out seems better. And should we use their Khorne deamon roster? That really depend on if tournaments will be using them. I always felt that Ranked and Black Box should follow the rules of the major tournaments in order for people to use them as training grounds.
- FUMBBL uses LRB6
How come we use cards in Ranked and Black box? I thought they were optional?
But to what path FUMBBL should use. When customization of teams in league is available then I think we might can talk about a FUMBBL ruleset if people want that. But for now staying and follow the path of being the most official site suited for tournament play is best IMO.
Posted by PainState on 2012-09-25 15:24:51
Thanks Christer for chiming in and giving us insight on your thoughts.
A FUMBBL Rule book. I would like to say that we just had the FUMBBL rule book uploaded in 1.O FFB.
No massive rules confab, forum flame wars, righteous coaches standing on soap boxes and 7 flame quit blogs.
What do you mean? I hear some coaches cry.
All the coaches that were crying for a FUMBBL LRB were really just crying about a few of the skills/combos. Lets be completly honest. With all the new variant rules just introduced, well there you go. CRP has now been converted to FUMBBL LRB in the (L) div.
Oh? well what about the unbalance of the TV system and so forth. Well FUMBBL allready amended TR under LRB4. Christer could reimpliment a TS function once again with out touching the core rules.
I fully support Christer in keeping Box/Ranked as close to official CRP rules as possible ALSO supporting the idea that the new FUMBBL LRB will be implimented in the League Div, which at the end of the day is FUMBBL's special addition to the Blood Bowl community in general. There is no doubt that FUMBBL's league scene is top notch across every format.
FUMBBL LRB has been introduced and I dont really hear anybody so far crying to the heavens of the injustices of it all. Oh? you want the open divs to allow all the Variant FUMBBL LRB rules? aint going to happen so you might as well start joining some leagues or put the time and effort into making one yourself.
A FUMBBL Rule book. I would like to say that we just had the FUMBBL rule book uploaded in 1.O FFB.
No massive rules confab, forum flame wars, righteous coaches standing on soap boxes and 7 flame quit blogs.
What do you mean? I hear some coaches cry.
All the coaches that were crying for a FUMBBL LRB were really just crying about a few of the skills/combos. Lets be completly honest. With all the new variant rules just introduced, well there you go. CRP has now been converted to FUMBBL LRB in the (L) div.
Oh? well what about the unbalance of the TV system and so forth. Well FUMBBL allready amended TR under LRB4. Christer could reimpliment a TS function once again with out touching the core rules.
I fully support Christer in keeping Box/Ranked as close to official CRP rules as possible ALSO supporting the idea that the new FUMBBL LRB will be implimented in the League Div, which at the end of the day is FUMBBL's special addition to the Blood Bowl community in general. There is no doubt that FUMBBL's league scene is top notch across every format.
FUMBBL LRB has been introduced and I dont really hear anybody so far crying to the heavens of the injustices of it all. Oh? you want the open divs to allow all the Variant FUMBBL LRB rules? aint going to happen so you might as well start joining some leagues or put the time and effort into making one yourself.
Posted by Cyrus-Havoc on 2012-09-25 15:29:57
I like new Rosters and would welcome any. But I think Fumbbl should only follow the NAF (if it follows anyone). It should never follow Cyanide. GW are irrelevant at the moment since they do not support Blood Bowl. That may change if it does that is the time to consider them.
Posted by PainState on 2012-09-25 15:37:14
On a side note: Coaches who dont thing the "cards" are official CRP well they are official. They are optional rules in the CRP rulebook that Christer decided to allow in the Open divs.
A "true" variant rule is one that is not in the CRP rule book,anywere.
A "true" variant rule is one that is not in the CRP rule book,anywere.
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2012-09-25 16:08:19
to me, GW is out of the game unless they announce renewed focus and will to develop BB further.
all reasonable applications of BBrules today are following the pattern to support LRB6 + something, this goes for the NAF and FUMBBL as far as I can judge.
Cyanide is taking components of LRB6 out of their support which seems illegitimate from my point of view. for that particular reason i do not see cyanide as a guiding star with regards to ruleset.
anyway, my gut feeling is that i would align with NAF on ranked and box whereas I would add the diversity ideas from cyanide (as long as somewhat balanced) in the league environment (like all other house rule options).
all reasonable applications of BBrules today are following the pattern to support LRB6 + something, this goes for the NAF and FUMBBL as far as I can judge.
Cyanide is taking components of LRB6 out of their support which seems illegitimate from my point of view. for that particular reason i do not see cyanide as a guiding star with regards to ruleset.
anyway, my gut feeling is that i would align with NAF on ranked and box whereas I would add the diversity ideas from cyanide (as long as somewhat balanced) in the league environment (like all other house rule options).
Posted by bghandras on 2012-09-25 16:45:07
I beleive that people will enjoy the best game, the best fluff, the best mechanic. If something does not work, then i suggest to fix it. Not keep bad rules just because somebody keeps them too.
Please note this is strictly for the case where you have 100% evidence of the fail. Please also note that i am not saying anything has failed. If i understand correctly, this i about policy rather than about individual rosters or rules.
With that said the extra rules makes the game more complicated. But what about eliminating rules? (or skills, or rosters, or anything that failed.) You can have different ruleset also by presenting a more simple aproach. Point is that differentiation does not always mean increased complexity level.
So i hope there will be change of the policy. Not for the sake of change, but for the sake of people providing evidences.
Please note this is strictly for the case where you have 100% evidence of the fail. Please also note that i am not saying anything has failed. If i understand correctly, this i about policy rather than about individual rosters or rules.
With that said the extra rules makes the game more complicated. But what about eliminating rules? (or skills, or rosters, or anything that failed.) You can have different ruleset also by presenting a more simple aproach. Point is that differentiation does not always mean increased complexity level.
So i hope there will be change of the policy. Not for the sake of change, but for the sake of people providing evidences.
Posted by pythrr on 2012-09-25 18:06:26
as Garion and Russo have said...
NAF, with mods in L.
NAF, with mods in L.
Posted by Sigmar1 on 2012-09-26 07:16:31
pythrr +1.
Stunty is the place for awesome new unofficial teams. STUNTY!
Stunty is the place for awesome new unofficial teams. STUNTY!
Posted by Niebling on 2012-09-26 09:27:55
Give us demons or give us death!!! more teams plz :)
Posted by Tarabaralla on 2012-09-26 09:57:45
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Christer.
Anyway, I wouldn't consider LRB6 and CRP different, being just a matter of 3 races (that, btw, do not affect NAF competitions because of their low efficiency in tournaments' environment).
To that, I'd add that FUMBBL is already customizing: cards are optional, but now we have them both in R and B, leaving L the only environment where we have the opportunity to stay close to the rulebook without any modification or optional issue (fun enough, considering L is where customization is welcome).
So, imho, there are basically 3 environments:
FUMBBL: LRB6+cards
Cyanide: LRB6+Khorne-proper inducements-proper star players
NAF: LRB6 (house rules for fluff are usually in non-ranked tournaments)
So, FUMBBL is already on his own way...
Anyway, I wouldn't consider LRB6 and CRP different, being just a matter of 3 races (that, btw, do not affect NAF competitions because of their low efficiency in tournaments' environment).
To that, I'd add that FUMBBL is already customizing: cards are optional, but now we have them both in R and B, leaving L the only environment where we have the opportunity to stay close to the rulebook without any modification or optional issue (fun enough, considering L is where customization is welcome).
So, imho, there are basically 3 environments:
FUMBBL: LRB6+cards
Cyanide: LRB6+Khorne-proper inducements-proper star players
NAF: LRB6 (house rules for fluff are usually in non-ranked tournaments)
So, FUMBBL is already on his own way...
Posted by Purplegoo on 2012-09-26 10:57:49
On the NAF point, anticipating this sort of chat, I asked opinion during the TD election.
The winners opinion was essentially they won't be sanctioned in his term, and the race is a Cyanide only thing. Online is bespoke from TT.
The winners opinion was essentially they won't be sanctioned in his term, and the race is a Cyanide only thing. Online is bespoke from TT.
Posted by Underworlder on 2012-09-26 11:29:47
Cards are part of the rules
Optionals means the if you use them or you don't use them, you're within the rules
Optional doesn't means that if you use them you're not following the rules anymore!
But you have to admint ALL the cards or NONE. Allowing only MAGIC ITEMS cards is not strictly following the rules
THUS, for what I think (and what it counts), I think that cards should be suspended until all cards are implemented, so that FUMBBL will be full LRB6
Cyanide do what they do to make money and in my opinion we have to completely ignore what they do
Optionals means the if you use them or you don't use them, you're within the rules
Optional doesn't means that if you use them you're not following the rules anymore!
But you have to admint ALL the cards or NONE. Allowing only MAGIC ITEMS cards is not strictly following the rules
THUS, for what I think (and what it counts), I think that cards should be suspended until all cards are implemented, so that FUMBBL will be full LRB6
Cyanide do what they do to make money and in my opinion we have to completely ignore what they do
Posted by SzieberthAdam on 2012-09-26 12:08:39
I agree with bghandras, Tarabaralla, Underworlder, and especially with PainState.
There was an [F] division in the past, let's revamp it as [F]UMBBL/[F]FB division. There are good coaches here to establis a FUMBBL Rules Committe for the division. With nice cooperation with the FFB Team, we could have the most balanced fantasy football ruleset in the scene.
There was an [F] division in the past, let's revamp it as [F]UMBBL/[F]FB division. There are good coaches here to establis a FUMBBL Rules Committe for the division. With nice cooperation with the FFB Team, we could have the most balanced fantasy football ruleset in the scene.
Posted by pythrr on 2012-09-26 18:05:36
creating another division, and thus diluting the player base further, is the WORST idea I have heard this month.
Posted by bghandras on 2012-09-26 18:09:30
I dont dare to hope it will happen soon, but in case my service is useful, then i can offer 10 years game design and development experience, and full commitment for free.
Posted by Arktoris on 2012-10-01 13:43:46
If you're taking votes, I'd like to vote for not including them until they are annexed into the LRB6.
for now, it's just a Cyanide blunder.
for now, it's just a Cyanide blunder.