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2015-09-06 23:59:26
46 votes, rating 6
46 votes, rating 6
FUMBBL and other BB communities
Recently, The NAF published a link on the site about a Blood Bowl survey. For various reasons, FUMBBL wasn't directly mentioned, which led to some questions regarding whether there was friction between FUMBBL and The NAF. First off, I'd like to state that I feel there is no such thing, and I have a pretty good relationship with The NAF (mostly through Sann). If this wasn't the case, I wouldn't really have put in the effort to support the NAF tournaments that have been running on the site for some time now.
With this blog entry, I want to address this issue from a higher perspective than this particular survey. Essentially, people on various forums (here and elsewhere) seem to maintain that there's some kind of grudge between FUMBBL blood bowl players and Blood Bowl enthusiasts elsewhere, be it TalkFantasyFootball, The NAF (ie, the tabletop players) and/or the Cyanide players.
While I'm sure this is an unfair generalization, I notice people posting about how one community is better than the other (I try to keep up with various BB related forums) which is something I find sad. While I greatly enjoy the FUMBBL community (being strongly biased), I thing it's sad to see people uphold some elitistic attitude stating that our community is better than any other. I personally have zero grudges towards any of the other communities and sincerely hope that people can get over this "us and them" behavior towards each-other. The people who play Blood Bowl are, in reality, a pretty small community as a whole and there's no reason to split up further.
I've been in contact with a lot of people from The NAF, and have been in contact with a Cyanide dev. All of them are cool people and I wouldn't hesitate to do more cross-community stuff going forward.
What do you all think? Is there a real "us vs them" going on? What would you like to see in order to get past these differences? Let me know!
With this blog entry, I want to address this issue from a higher perspective than this particular survey. Essentially, people on various forums (here and elsewhere) seem to maintain that there's some kind of grudge between FUMBBL blood bowl players and Blood Bowl enthusiasts elsewhere, be it TalkFantasyFootball, The NAF (ie, the tabletop players) and/or the Cyanide players.
While I'm sure this is an unfair generalization, I notice people posting about how one community is better than the other (I try to keep up with various BB related forums) which is something I find sad. While I greatly enjoy the FUMBBL community (being strongly biased), I thing it's sad to see people uphold some elitistic attitude stating that our community is better than any other. I personally have zero grudges towards any of the other communities and sincerely hope that people can get over this "us and them" behavior towards each-other. The people who play Blood Bowl are, in reality, a pretty small community as a whole and there's no reason to split up further.
I've been in contact with a lot of people from The NAF, and have been in contact with a Cyanide dev. All of them are cool people and I wouldn't hesitate to do more cross-community stuff going forward.
What do you all think? Is there a real "us vs them" going on? What would you like to see in order to get past these differences? Let me know!
Comments
Posted by easilyamused on 2015-09-07 00:05:57
As always it the vocal minority making all the noise.
Personally I've never understood why the any BB coach would want to bash another just because they played on another platform? It's the same game!!!
Same as the whole R vs B argument. Waste of time and does not achieve anything productive.
Personally I've never understood why the any BB coach would want to bash another just because they played on another platform? It's the same game!!!
Same as the whole R vs B argument. Waste of time and does not achieve anything productive.
Posted by Silent_Hastati on 2015-09-07 01:11:13
I want to mention a lot of reason Cyanide players avoid FUMBBL from what I've heard in those chatrooms, is negative experiences like this where when they mention they came from Cyanide, opposing coaches rant and rave at them and insult them ingame, and thus drives them off.
Posted by Khor_Varik on 2015-09-07 01:11:18
KILL THEM ALL!
Peace & Love
Hum... As Jim Morrison used to say: "Anything that you say means exactly what you say and its opposite."
Well, I'm tired, sorry.
Peace & Love
Hum... As Jim Morrison used to say: "Anything that you say means exactly what you say and its opposite."
Well, I'm tired, sorry.
Posted by Endzone on 2015-09-07 01:13:36
Probably just 'purple sash v green sash' a la Bab5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcBTOU7RvbU
Given half a chance people take sides - it's human nature (and Drazi nature!).
Given half a chance people take sides - it's human nature (and Drazi nature!).
Posted by Balle2000 on 2015-09-07 01:17:43
Personally I know little of what goes on in other BB communities (except that somewhere they prefer playing BB without the SPP, hehe), which is why I find it very informative to read what you and other people (for example NAF blokes) "in the know" have to say about the greater BB politics. Sharing more insight like you just did, will help people form better and thus healthier opinions. Having said that, possible dark GW-sanctioned clouds in the distance threatening the existence of Fumbbl, puts people on edge. Threat usually makes people rally around their own.
Posted by Silent_Hastati on 2015-09-07 01:27:00
That said Christer, the bloodbowl subreddit hosts coaches of both, so that may be a place to start. Do an AMA or something to get some of the Cyanide coaches interested.
Posted by Bobs on 2015-09-07 02:30:39
A small percentage of Cyanide players gives that platform a bad rep.
Just the same as a small portion of our player base gives us a bad rap with snide remarks and elitism.
Scratch the surface and you'll find, mostly, we are a lot alike.
Just the same as a small portion of our player base gives us a bad rap with snide remarks and elitism.
Scratch the surface and you'll find, mostly, we are a lot alike.
Posted by fidius on 2015-09-07 02:33:50
The only cultural criticism of Fumbbl I've ever heard is that coaches here are all about the killin'. In other words it's a hard-core environment for the hard-core player. There is some truth to this, but has been much better lately imo, perhaps as a result of the Box pairing changes, perhaps due to loss of certain problem coaches, perhaps for other reasons. Truthfully this perception could exist simply because a much higher proportion of the Fumbbl userbase are top-table coaches than on Cyanide or any other league, so as a newbie you are more likely to get your hat handed to you at first.
Posted by koadah on 2015-09-07 03:38:58
It seems to me to be much, much better than it used to be. ;)
IMO much of Fumbbl's bad reputation stems from the bad old days. Personally, I still keep out of #Fumbbl out of habit.
Fumbbl coaches do still seem to think that they are a cut above the rest skill wise though. That might rub a few up the wrong way.
IMO much of Fumbbl's bad reputation stems from the bad old days. Personally, I still keep out of #Fumbbl out of habit.
Fumbbl coaches do still seem to think that they are a cut above the rest skill wise though. That might rub a few up the wrong way.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-09-07 04:29:41
The issue is an artifical division. Just like how Box vs Ranked has been thrown around the site, one side claiming to be better than the other, when in reality it's one and the same. Blood Bowl. This goes for every thing in life, us vs them. It's bullshit but people seem to enjoy it (for whatever reason).
I would be silly to dislike the people on TFF or Cyanide, because I've used both of them as well as Fumbbl in the past. And I actually like me! :)
I would be silly to dislike the people on TFF or Cyanide, because I've used both of them as well as Fumbbl in the past. And I actually like me! :)
Posted by mekutata on 2015-09-07 08:20:47
fumbbl vs cyanide is like whooper vs hamburger. if you are sane you avoid both.
Posted by Cyrus-Havoc on 2015-09-07 09:14:00
I am a member of NAF & a regular here I love both forms of the game. I do think it daft that Fumbbl is not part of the survey since it will give false results making the whole thing meaningless.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2015-09-07 09:18:41
All very sensible stuff, there's no need for 'us' as FUMBBLers to get defensive or offended. Or for us vs them, whomever them might be.
Although, the sash thing. Come on. Purple sashes are clearly bestest!
Although, the sash thing. Come on. Purple sashes are clearly bestest!
Posted by Severedunit on 2015-09-07 09:24:37
I don't care who likes who and who doesn't. It's just a silly game that we all love but it does seem strange that Fumbbl has been blatantly left out of the survey options.
Christer: Any idea why they would do this?
Which of these Blood Bowl websites do you visit at least once a month?
Select all that apply
Official Cyanide Forum
The NAF.net or NAF forum (International)
TalkFantasyFootball (UK/International)
Ausbowl (Australia/New Zealand)
Teamfrancebb (France)
Deutsche-bb-community.de (Germany)
BBforo (Spain)
BBforum.info (Italy)
Zlurpee (North America)
BBTactics
BloodBowlBlog
Other:
Christer: Any idea why they would do this?
Which of these Blood Bowl websites do you visit at least once a month?
Select all that apply
Official Cyanide Forum
The NAF.net or NAF forum (International)
TalkFantasyFootball (UK/International)
Ausbowl (Australia/New Zealand)
Teamfrancebb (France)
Deutsche-bb-community.de (Germany)
BBforo (Spain)
BBforum.info (Italy)
Zlurpee (North America)
BBTactics
BloodBowlBlog
Other:
Posted by Dhaktokh on 2015-09-07 09:39:14
The reason of my comment was that I was very surprised. And since I have 0 relations (and 0 problems) with any other site playing bb, I was just curious and kept wondering why. Since the best site clearly should have a mentioning. ;-D
I just wanted to know. Thanks for taking your time explaining Christer!
I just wanted to know. Thanks for taking your time explaining Christer!
Posted by Gratchoof on 2015-09-07 09:58:03
I've only played multiplayer on Fumbbl, but have done a lot of singleplayer Cyanide.
I think the AI is very very bad, which leads to people (like me) coming here thinking they are the goblins knees only to find out otherwise. I think this then creates friction as 1) the Cyanide players may feel others are "cheating" as they no longer win every match 5-0, and 2) the Fumbbl players bashing the Cyanide players for their lack of tactics and "stupid" play.
Personally, I'm happy having the competition on here, and only do singleplayer these days when I don't have the time for Fumbbl.
To clarify, I've never experienced hostility from anyone on Fumbbl for any reason so it's all just my own musings.
I think the AI is very very bad, which leads to people (like me) coming here thinking they are the goblins knees only to find out otherwise. I think this then creates friction as 1) the Cyanide players may feel others are "cheating" as they no longer win every match 5-0, and 2) the Fumbbl players bashing the Cyanide players for their lack of tactics and "stupid" play.
Personally, I'm happy having the competition on here, and only do singleplayer these days when I don't have the time for Fumbbl.
To clarify, I've never experienced hostility from anyone on Fumbbl for any reason so it's all just my own musings.
Posted by the_Sage on 2015-09-07 10:38:14
I thank Cyanide for getting me into bloodbowl, which quickly landed me here on FUMBBL, where I never left. I have no particular issue with Cyanide coaches, I do have issue with their system (especially not allowing coaches not to time out, not allowing reconnects after disconnecting, and not policing concessions).
I also have no issue with the tabletop community; as a NAF member and regular TT tournament and league player, I consider myself one of them.
I do feel a sense of 'us and them' when it comes to FUMBBL and Cyanide users. This is very natural behavior that I can accept in myself, even though I know it's silly deep down.
I also have no issue with the tabletop community; as a NAF member and regular TT tournament and league player, I consider myself one of them.
I do feel a sense of 'us and them' when it comes to FUMBBL and Cyanide users. This is very natural behavior that I can accept in myself, even though I know it's silly deep down.
Posted by Medon on 2015-09-07 11:22:37
Working together is super! But we first need to pass the 2+ animosity roll :-)
Posted by Balle2000 on 2015-09-07 13:22:34
@Mr_Foulscumm All divides us humanoids make between ourselves are more or less just imagined divides, but still they always find a way to manifest themselves very factually. Unfortunately sometimes to the detriment of everyone.
We have examples of a person playing both Cyanide, Table Top AND Fumbbl, and still identifying themselves as e.g. Fumbblers. Isn't it odd?
@Christer I think that coaches "moving" from Cyanide to Fumbbl are generally VERY welcome here! However, the community at Cyanide has a somewhat bad reputation, because of difference in attitudes (for example towards conceding games). Sometimes this can cause friction, but then again there are also Fumbblers who cause "internal" friction :)
There are also community differences between NAF/TT and Fumbbl. The biggest difference I can see, is NAF Tournaments having a completely different style of blood bowl (resurrection), than 99% of non-NAF-sanctioned BB on Fumbbl. This might also be a cause for friction.
I'm not sure it's as much as people feeling they are "better than the other", as it is coaches wanting recognition and a place for their "own style" of the game.
Is it possible to get past the differences?, you say. Maybe there is no need to get past them, if everyone is given the space and recognition for enjoying their preferred style of blood bowl.
On the flipside, it would be amazing if everyone could gather around one way of play the game.
We have examples of a person playing both Cyanide, Table Top AND Fumbbl, and still identifying themselves as e.g. Fumbblers. Isn't it odd?
@Christer I think that coaches "moving" from Cyanide to Fumbbl are generally VERY welcome here! However, the community at Cyanide has a somewhat bad reputation, because of difference in attitudes (for example towards conceding games). Sometimes this can cause friction, but then again there are also Fumbblers who cause "internal" friction :)
There are also community differences between NAF/TT and Fumbbl. The biggest difference I can see, is NAF Tournaments having a completely different style of blood bowl (resurrection), than 99% of non-NAF-sanctioned BB on Fumbbl. This might also be a cause for friction.
I'm not sure it's as much as people feeling they are "better than the other", as it is coaches wanting recognition and a place for their "own style" of the game.
Is it possible to get past the differences?, you say. Maybe there is no need to get past them, if everyone is given the space and recognition for enjoying their preferred style of blood bowl.
On the flipside, it would be amazing if everyone could gather around one way of play the game.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-09-07 13:35:41
I think the FUMBBL community is different to the other BB playing communities. I believe there are more players here that have only played BB through FUMBBL and due to little GW influence have a different outlook on the game.
I also would like to see more cross community projects, so the NAF tournaments on FUMBBL can only be a good thing for building relations, introducing FUMBBL players to resurrection tournament play and adding more diversity/options.
I think though there are some cross community hostilities, mainly when people from other communities post in the forums. But I don't think there are major issues, nothing that can't be ironed out over time.
I also would like to see more cross community projects, so the NAF tournaments on FUMBBL can only be a good thing for building relations, introducing FUMBBL players to resurrection tournament play and adding more diversity/options.
I think though there are some cross community hostilities, mainly when people from other communities post in the forums. But I don't think there are major issues, nothing that can't be ironed out over time.
Posted by albinv on 2015-09-07 13:54:32
Most excellent post and step Christer.
- It's human nature
- I often see cyanide player mention the skill level on Fumbbl puts them off
- Some Fumbblers ride the elitist attitude way way too hard (minority probably, but vocal)
I try to welcome new coaches. Some of the new coaches, whether from NAF or Cyanide background start out quite successful on Fumbbl. I love to see that.
The NAF post was just very very clumsy and thoughtless i guess. No sense denying it wasnt.
Hobbyists or not, people at the top at times need to communicate their decisions to the people to avoid drama/ misunderstandings.
I also guess mekutatas remark, if funny, holds a lot of truth. ;)
Also merge R n B - making the B gamefinder the default way of arranging matches - for a more united and better playing environment. Removing inherent problems in of both divisions and the stupid online drama and fights between the coaches that stem from it. It would solve so many drama going on in the community and would make for a fairer and better playing experience/ environment for everyone. I cant see why it wouldnt.
Just kidding. I know it will never happen. Still had to end the post with an annoying request of course - in best Fumbbl tradition. ;)
I dont play on other platforms or visit other BB forums. I might give cyanide or TT a try at one point. Mainly because im not an (online) community guy i guess, but still cant keep out.
Best blog in awhile. Thanks.
- It's human nature
- I often see cyanide player mention the skill level on Fumbbl puts them off
- Some Fumbblers ride the elitist attitude way way too hard (minority probably, but vocal)
I try to welcome new coaches. Some of the new coaches, whether from NAF or Cyanide background start out quite successful on Fumbbl. I love to see that.
The NAF post was just very very clumsy and thoughtless i guess. No sense denying it wasnt.
Hobbyists or not, people at the top at times need to communicate their decisions to the people to avoid drama/ misunderstandings.
I also guess mekutatas remark, if funny, holds a lot of truth. ;)
Also merge R n B - making the B gamefinder the default way of arranging matches - for a more united and better playing environment. Removing inherent problems in of both divisions and the stupid online drama and fights between the coaches that stem from it. It would solve so many drama going on in the community and would make for a fairer and better playing experience/ environment for everyone. I cant see why it wouldnt.
Just kidding. I know it will never happen. Still had to end the post with an annoying request of course - in best Fumbbl tradition. ;)
I dont play on other platforms or visit other BB forums. I might give cyanide or TT a try at one point. Mainly because im not an (online) community guy i guess, but still cant keep out.
Best blog in awhile. Thanks.
Posted by OenarLod on 2015-09-07 15:55:14
Being one of the "vocal minority" in this case, I want to explain it a bit.
I fully endorse Christer blog, and that's exactly the reason I was unpleased by the surveym but expecially from Sann reply.
I'm somehow still new here (at least I wasn't there in the good old days) and I really think the community is great: I don't see any particular grudge here against other communities, if not a bit of elitism about FUMBBL being a better coach pool.
That's why I was quite surprised of FUMBBL being excluded as an option in the survey and by Sann explanation. Because at first glance it seemed to imply exactly the opposite, i.e. other communities have a grundge against FUMBBL, and I thought it was strange for the NAF to follow such ridiculous inter-web hostilities.
Given Shteve explanation, the case is closed for me.
@easilyamused and others
Despite being a "full box" coach, I never joined the usual "vocal minority" in the other issues mentioned so I find the comparison inappropriate in this case.
It's not a case of elitism or stating I'm on the "good" side, but pointing out exactly the opposite, someone doing it.
But as I said, case closed for me Shteve explanation.
I fully endorse Christer blog, and that's exactly the reason I was unpleased by the surveym but expecially from Sann reply.
I'm somehow still new here (at least I wasn't there in the good old days) and I really think the community is great: I don't see any particular grudge here against other communities, if not a bit of elitism about FUMBBL being a better coach pool.
That's why I was quite surprised of FUMBBL being excluded as an option in the survey and by Sann explanation. Because at first glance it seemed to imply exactly the opposite, i.e. other communities have a grundge against FUMBBL, and I thought it was strange for the NAF to follow such ridiculous inter-web hostilities.
Given Shteve explanation, the case is closed for me.
@easilyamused and others
Despite being a "full box" coach, I never joined the usual "vocal minority" in the other issues mentioned so I find the comparison inappropriate in this case.
It's not a case of elitism or stating I'm on the "good" side, but pointing out exactly the opposite, someone doing it.
But as I said, case closed for me Shteve explanation.
Posted by Dominik on 2015-09-07 15:58:37
Have to say that on fumbbl a lot of coaches are very aggressive to defend their own opinion and become insultive fast. Example: i join a game as spectator and whatever i write there, the first reply of always the same coaches is a provocation. Its probably some kind of mobbing and its quite obvious that these coaches try to reach a higher status by belitting of other coaches.
Im a tough person and can stand it but i understand why many have taken the chance to quit fumbbl and join the other online blood bowl experience.
Lets see if the same sad people mouth about me after this reply.
Im a tough person and can stand it but i understand why many have taken the chance to quit fumbbl and join the other online blood bowl experience.
Lets see if the same sad people mouth about me after this reply.
Posted by Uedder on 2015-09-08 00:28:31
I will have to say, this "vocal minority" or "bad attitude" thing doesn't really make any sense.
The only reason FUMBBL wasn't mentioned in the survey it's because "someone" obviously thinks we're "stealing" "something" by playing a game for free without having to buy miniatures or buggy videogames.
That's about it. That's why some "communities" hold a grudge against fumbbl.
The rest is just smoke.
The only reason FUMBBL wasn't mentioned in the survey it's because "someone" obviously thinks we're "stealing" "something" by playing a game for free without having to buy miniatures or buggy videogames.
That's about it. That's why some "communities" hold a grudge against fumbbl.
The rest is just smoke.