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2023-12-24 20:23:49
2 votes, rating 6
2 votes, rating 6
Strength Skills Suck, Brawler vs Pro Edition
Edit: PM me if you know how to get rid of these big gaps, I'm at a loss.
Okay, so Strength as a category needs some love. The existence of Defensive, and the change in the overall roster compositions, have weakened Guard a bit, and Mighty Blow now only works on your turn and only if you are standing, but that's relatively minor; they're both pretty good anyway. Grab, Juggernaut, Stand Firm, and Break Tackle are ... fine, I guess. Thick Skull now doesn't compare to +AV even as a random primary, but it's still good on some players. But the eighth-best skill, at worst, is Strong Arm, and the best thing about Strong Arm is that you re-roll it.
Arm Bar and Multiple Block are mediocre as random primaries on the very best possible players to take them, and Pile Driver is a worthless dead skill unless it was a random on a Deathroller. All three of these are bad design: there should be maybe one skill as bad as Arm Bar and Multiple Block, though both would be okay if Pile Driver were fixed to the point of mediocrity. I have some ideas on that front.
But then there's Brawler. Oh, boy. Let's see how bad Brawler is by comparing it to Pro.
Pro is a mediocre, run-of-the-mill skill. It's okay on a hitter, good on a player with a negatrait, and has some combo value for Dauntless, Jump Up, or other skills you might use on your own turn to roll dice that can't end your turn by themselves. But it's not in anyone's top ten, you know?
But here's the thing: Pro is much better than Brawler for everything Brawler can be used for, and then has a lot of other applications, too.
Let's take the most common way to use Brawler, the 2d block for knockdown.
Brawler works if you roll a both down, you don't roll a knockdown, and you wouldn't use a Team Re-Roll, either because you don't have it, or you wouldn't have turned over, or you have Loner, or you have the Re-Roll but are saving it for later. Pro works if you don't roll a knockdown and wouldn't use a Team Re-Roll, regardless of what specific dice came up, but is 1 in 3 to fail.
So let's envision a 4x4 table, where you either do or do not have Block and do or do not have a TRR for the occasion, and your opponent does or does not have Block and/or Dodge.
Okay, so Strength as a category needs some love. The existence of Defensive, and the change in the overall roster compositions, have weakened Guard a bit, and Mighty Blow now only works on your turn and only if you are standing, but that's relatively minor; they're both pretty good anyway. Grab, Juggernaut, Stand Firm, and Break Tackle are ... fine, I guess. Thick Skull now doesn't compare to +AV even as a random primary, but it's still good on some players. But the eighth-best skill, at worst, is Strong Arm, and the best thing about Strong Arm is that you re-roll it.
Arm Bar and Multiple Block are mediocre as random primaries on the very best possible players to take them, and Pile Driver is a worthless dead skill unless it was a random on a Deathroller. All three of these are bad design: there should be maybe one skill as bad as Arm Bar and Multiple Block, though both would be okay if Pile Driver were fixed to the point of mediocrity. I have some ideas on that front.
But then there's Brawler. Oh, boy. Let's see how bad Brawler is by comparing it to Pro.
Pro is a mediocre, run-of-the-mill skill. It's okay on a hitter, good on a player with a negatrait, and has some combo value for Dauntless, Jump Up, or other skills you might use on your own turn to roll dice that can't end your turn by themselves. But it's not in anyone's top ten, you know?
But here's the thing: Pro is much better than Brawler for everything Brawler can be used for, and then has a lot of other applications, too.
Let's take the most common way to use Brawler, the 2d block for knockdown.
Brawler works if you roll a both down, you don't roll a knockdown, and you wouldn't use a Team Re-Roll, either because you don't have it, or you wouldn't have turned over, or you have Loner, or you have the Re-Roll but are saving it for later. Pro works if you don't roll a knockdown and wouldn't use a Team Re-Roll, regardless of what specific dice came up, but is 1 in 3 to fail.
So let's envision a 4x4 table, where you either do or do not have Block and do or do not have a TRR for the occasion, and your opponent does or does not have Block and/or Dodge.
| Brawler, 2 dice | N | B | D | BD |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| N | 7 | 7 | 9 | 9 |
| R | 4 | 4 | 6 | 6 |
| B | 0 | 5 | 0 | 7 |
| BR | 0 | 5 | 0 | 7 |
| Pro, 2 dice | N | B | D | BD |
| N | 16 | 16 | 25 | 25 |
| R | 12 | 12 | 21 | 21 |
| B | 9 | 16 | 16 | 25 |
| BR | 8 | 15 | 15 | 24 |
| 2 dice | N | B | D | BD |
| N | 21/32 | 21/32 | 27/50 | 27/50 |
| R | 12/24 | 12/24 | 18/42 | 18/42 |
| B | 0/18 | 15/32 | 0/32 | 21/48 |
| BR | 0/16 | 15/30 | 0/30 | 21/48 |
| 1 die | N | B | D | BD |
| N | 18/24 | 18/24 | 18/24 | 18/24 |
| R | 18/0 | 18/0 | 18/0 | 18/0 |
| B | 0/12 | 0/12 | 0/12 | 0/12 |
| BR | 0/0 | 0/0 | 0/0 | 0/0 |
| 3 dice | N | B | D | BD |
| N | 111/128 | 111/128 | 156/250 | 156/250 |
| R | 87/112 | 87/112 | 132/234 | 132/234 |
| B | 0/54 | 102/128 | 0/128 | 147/250 |
| BR | 0/52 | 102/126 | 0/126 | 147/248 |
Comments
Posted by Jedi_Knight_Amoeba on 2023-12-24 22:57:07
Wait until you get a look at those Passing Skills. WOOF!
Posted by JackassRampant on 2023-12-25 02:34:31
That's different, Jedi_Knight_Amoeba. Passing skills are only good as randoms on a very few players, and the best ones are awesome in the right circumstances. Strength skills are secondary on most players, including most who can't consider Passing skills at all. As such, Strength has to compare with Agility and can't be far behind General as a random category, while Passing just needs some skills worth taking and it's good. Also, Leader for 10k, in an edition with multiple TRR per turn, is super-powered.
Posted by Jedi_Knight_Amoeba on 2023-12-25 14:29:28
It still doesn't negate the fact that agility teams(which would be the ones mostly utilizing passing skills) are more disadvantaged to bash teams in BB2020.
GW was more concerned with hitting a magical number of skills to fit their chart than conflating skills to be useful. I also think by adding so many different skills was a disservice to the tabletop game. Trying to remember all the skills and their use in a 4 minute turn for most new people is tough in a game that for the most part could be simple.
GW was more concerned with hitting a magical number of skills to fit their chart than conflating skills to be useful. I also think by adding so many different skills was a disservice to the tabletop game. Trying to remember all the skills and their use in a 4 minute turn for most new people is tough in a game that for the most part could be simple.
Posted by spinball on 2023-12-25 14:56:54
Just imagine if brawler did what it sounds like it does.
What if on defense it didn't allow your opponent use block or wrestle?
What if on defense it didn't allow your opponent use block or wrestle?
Posted by Jedi_Knight_Amoeba on 2023-12-25 15:00:55
The fact we have some skills now that changed from being assertive to passive was a big change that I didn't notice until playing on fumbbl. I.E. Mighty Blow.
Posted by Carthage on 2023-12-25 16:25:15
And even with all that it's still the 2nd best chart to throw random on after general.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2023-12-26 02:20:46
I agree with JKA that there are too many Passing skills, it should be a d8 table.
Brawler needs help but a doubling should do it, like if it worked defensively but was countered on a Juggernaut blitz. I would replace Pile Driver with a skill that auto-breaks AV on a 2 or 3 after a block or foul, but you go prone.
@Carthage, not sure. Agility has way better odds for a lot of players.
Brawler needs help but a doubling should do it, like if it worked defensively but was countered on a Juggernaut blitz. I would replace Pile Driver with a skill that auto-breaks AV on a 2 or 3 after a block or foul, but you go prone.
@Carthage, not sure. Agility has way better odds for a lot of players.
Posted by Carthage on 2023-12-26 04:07:31
I'd say it has decent odds of something useful but bloaty. Sure feet is never bad, like pile driver, but you are hunting for dodge and maybe 1 of git.
But for strength either guard or mighty blow is massive.
Higher highs, lower lows on strength. But if you are TV minmaxing linemen, 2 amazing options are better than 1 amazing option.
Though, I'm biased for mostly playing running/agility teams. Diving Tackle on a bash team might be that same level to make agility have 2 amazing rolls.
But for strength either guard or mighty blow is massive.
Higher highs, lower lows on strength. But if you are TV minmaxing linemen, 2 amazing options are better than 1 amazing option.
Though, I'm biased for mostly playing running/agility teams. Diving Tackle on a bash team might be that same level to make agility have 2 amazing rolls.
Posted by Carthage on 2023-12-26 04:09:37
Also as an agility player mostly. Please don't make the strength table any atronger... bash is more than strong enough as-is haha
Posted by JackassRampant on 2023-12-26 04:41:15
Carthage, have you not yet felt the wicked sting of the Defensive bug? As a 10k random on an elf lino, or a 20k random on a Beastman or Longbeard, it's awesome. It's even better on a ST4 blocker who hit 6 right at the end of the season and you're not sure you want to take a one-skill guy back. It's also great on a big, but that's a big gamble if it's random, though it's totally worth 40k for. I know this sounds counterintuitive but Defensive is sometimes better than Guard because you can use it on yourself.
Posted by Sp00keh on 2023-12-26 16:33:56
Good post but the math is impenetrable so I just skipped to the end to see summary; Brawler is much worse than Pro
I don’t agree with the comparisons of the skill tables though, and you can’t judge that with maths
I don’t agree with the comparisons of the skill tables though, and you can’t judge that with maths
Posted by Carthage on 2023-12-26 23:07:11
I've used defensive some but I would put it's power level way below guard (a top 5 skill easily). First it's got the Tackle problem but exacerbated since even less teams have guard compared to dodge. Next, the positions that get it on primaries really don't want to be hit as they tend to be low armor. Defensive requires being based up to work. Third it's entirely passive in the same vein as stand firm or sidestep. But both of those give better field control. Defensive is not great on most agility teams because they lack the strength to dissuade blocks even with guard turned off. With a few of them you can secure a screen or cage better but just 1 does almost nothing on a fully ST3 team.
But I totally agree it's a great skill on a higher strength player (ie amazon blocker) or on a team that can mix in a decent amount of guard. Then you have a significant scrum advantage. But on the teams that get alot of access to it on primaries I put it around the same power level as like sure feet maybe. Not bad, but as a first skill you contemplate if it's worth the TV.
But I totally agree it's a great skill on a higher strength player (ie amazon blocker) or on a team that can mix in a decent amount of guard. Then you have a significant scrum advantage. But on the teams that get alot of access to it on primaries I put it around the same power level as like sure feet maybe. Not bad, but as a first skill you contemplate if it's worth the TV.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2023-12-27 00:03:26
Yeah, I hear most of that. I don't think you actually have to base with Defensive to get the advantage, if you can deter basing. I think it's a lot better than Sure Feet if you are an elf lino who scored it on a random.
Posted by SeriliKirico on 2023-12-30 11:59:29
Yea, I totally agree with somebody arguing by bringing up subject of state of passing in BB2020. It makes me crack a little every time a bash team coach starts complaining of some unfairness they encountered in recent edition - while passing play was gutted beyond imaginable in that very ruleset, crippling all AGI-based team relying on them.
1. Passing skills are crap, mostly; some were specifically made worse for no reason at all
2. Wildly inaccurate is added making a passing play even less viable and reliable option (while even before every guide on BB you can find would suggest you against using passsing unless there is no other options, due to it's being not very reliable)
3. Passing abilities were cut all around the board (AV7 elves throwing ball on 4+ while keeping their cost (in some cases even increasing it) is freaking attrocity, further devaluing their team's value, already bloated enough. Before you can say "right, elves are brittle and cost a lot, but every one can throw a ball like a god" - and now what? What are we paying and suffering for?
4. Interception was made even more powerful, allowing players to catch the ball out of air immediately.
Before they even think about "rebalaning" already quite powerful ST skill family, they must fix all the damage they did to AGI teams play and passing.
1. Passing skills are crap, mostly; some were specifically made worse for no reason at all
2. Wildly inaccurate is added making a passing play even less viable and reliable option (while even before every guide on BB you can find would suggest you against using passsing unless there is no other options, due to it's being not very reliable)
3. Passing abilities were cut all around the board (AV7 elves throwing ball on 4+ while keeping their cost (in some cases even increasing it) is freaking attrocity, further devaluing their team's value, already bloated enough. Before you can say "right, elves are brittle and cost a lot, but every one can throw a ball like a god" - and now what? What are we paying and suffering for?
4. Interception was made even more powerful, allowing players to catch the ball out of air immediately.
Before they even think about "rebalaning" already quite powerful ST skill family, they must fix all the damage they did to AGI teams play and passing.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2023-12-31 11:13:36
Whataboutist much? I mean, yeah, passing needs a little work, but these things can both be true. Wouldn't it be awesome if you actually had decisions to make after rolling random skills? Like, "keep this guy with a white elephant skill or dump him and try again?" is a whole lot more fun than, "keep him if he rolls a good skill and dump him if he rolls a bad one," and right now we're shoehorned into the latter.